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The Honda CA95 / Benly 150 Restoration The little brother to the CA160 in our family of Hondas

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  #1  
Unread 01-14-2013, 08:12 PM
Dave swMN Dave swMN is offline
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Unhappy Ignition switch problems

Don't know where to start....the switch seems very messed up. The '64 ca95 operated electrically ok the last time used (25 yrs ago) but won't work now.

The key moves and stops at six positions, the switch looks like it was apart before, the BAT wire had been resoldered and had to do that again, another wire had been soldered also (goes to neutral light) all fo the wires don't match up with the color codes in the service manual.

The key comes out in two positions, when top of key is ratated all the way back and two clicks forward from there.

The green w/yellow wire, SE, always has 2.6 V and the wire going to the neutral light has full volts in two positions and .7-1.2 volts in the other 4 positions.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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  #2  
Unread 01-14-2013, 08:13 PM
Dave swMN Dave swMN is offline
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Don't know where to start....the switch seems very messed up. The '64 ca95 operated electrically ok the last time used (25 yrs ago) but won't work now.

The key moves and stops at six positions, the switch looks like it was apart before, the BAT wire had been resoldered and had to do that again, another wire had been soldered also (goes to neutral light) all fo the wires don't match up with thecolor codes in the service manual.

The key comes out in two positions, when top of key is ratated all the way back and two clicks forward from there.

The green w/yellow wire, SE, always has 2.6 V and the wire going to the neutral light has full volts in two positions and .7-1.2 volts in the other 4 positions.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated

Last edited by Dave swMN; 01-14-2013 at 08:16 PM.
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  #3  
Unread 01-15-2013, 01:52 AM
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Quote:
The key moves and stops at six positions
That's interesting - I was expecting five positions, as illustrated below. Can we get a picture of the key switch and its wires?

I also don't see a reference to a green w/yellow wire, so perhaps there was some creative wiring done at some point, or the switch is not a stock CA95 switch? Spokes is the resident key switch specialist, so he'll likely have a better opinion on this than I.

The SE voltage readings seem odd but are a great clue. The SE wire on the switch, which I expect to be yellow, should provide voltage only in position III. SE should route to the selenium rectifier. If you're always getting low voltage at that wire, that would suggest that the selenium/steel diode in the rectifier has degraded and is allowing voltage to leak back. Assuming your battery is charged, a faulty rectifier could explain a constant low voltage. Selenium rectifiers can degrade over time simply from age.

What's the voltage reading at the battery?

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Unread 01-15-2013, 02:08 AM
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I thought I'd try to illustrate what I'm assuming, based on your comment that you're getting a constant low voltage (2.6v) at the SE lead on the switch.

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Unread 01-15-2013, 03:24 AM
Spokes Spokes is offline
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Connect a 6 volt latern battery to the switch with clips. Black (bat) and ground the switch body. Measure the voltage per key position. It should read the same voltage at every switch position. There is nothing in the switch that would reduce voltage by design, perhaps there is corrosion or excessive lubrication.

Send in a pic. I happen to have a 1964 CA95 switch to compare it to.
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  #6  
Unread 01-15-2013, 06:27 AM
Dave swMN Dave swMN is offline
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Default A little more info

don't have the motor on th bike but jumped wires from the harness to the wires on the motor except the wire to the condensor ( and maybe one more...will check) will also check to see if the motor is grounded to the frame yet.

switch----------- before----red------between---between----between--past
term--------------black----------------reds------red/yel----yel/red----red

BAT--------------6.1-------6.1-------6.1---------6.1---------6.1------6.1

to Neu------------.7-------6.1--------6.1--------1.2----------.9-------.9

IG---------------6.1-------6.1--------6.1--------1.3----------.9-------.9

TL--------------3.8--------6.1---------0---------0------------0--------0

ST B/wR---------0---------6.1--------6.1--------0------------0-------6.1

HE green---------0--------6.1---------0---------0------------0-------6.1

DY white?------2.6-------2.6-------2.6----------2.6--------2.6 ------2.6

SE grn/w yel-----2.6 ------2.6-------2.6--------2.6----------2.6------2.6
---------------key out------------------------key out--------------------------

Had sprayed contact cleaner in key slot (generously) but no other lubricant, the switch case is rusty so shouldn't be any lubricant inside switch.
Will take pics and play some more

Last edited by Dave swMN; 01-18-2013 at 06:41 AM. Reason: update info
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  #7  
Unread 01-15-2013, 04:33 PM
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I doubt the contact cleaner will reach the contacts if sprayed through the key slot, but at least your tumblers should be clean

I'm not certain how to interpret the table of voltage readings. I believe that the left column refers to the wires on the key switch, but what wires are the next 6 columns referring to?
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  #8  
Unread 01-15-2013, 06:19 PM
Dave swMN Dave swMN is offline
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Default More info

The top line are key positions as they relate to the small spots on the switch front. The left column is the wires on the back of the switch and further along on the wire harness. The other numbers are the voltage readings on the wires. I changed some of the voltage numbers tonight.

After checking the voltage I put the load for that wire on and when I did that the voltage dropped to -0-. Will check to see if I have a bad ground tomorrow but would be surprised if that is the case. The spots where the voltage drops are brake light, horn, starter solenoid and neutral light.

I do have another rectifier that I could try (looks new) but it has 4 wires on it, yellow, green, pink and red w/white stripe. The old rectifier has 3, brown, green and red w/white stripe.
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Unread 01-15-2013, 06:26 PM
Dave swMN Dave swMN is offline
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I don't know yet if the voltage drops off for the Ignition coil, head lamp, speedo light and tail light.
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  #10  
Unread 01-15-2013, 06:29 PM
Spokes Spokes is offline
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Here is a close up pic of a 1964 CA95 switch back


Hope this helps
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  #11  
Unread 01-16-2013, 02:52 AM
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Quote:
The top line are key positions as they relate to the small spots on the switch front.
Maybe that's what I'm struggling with. The small spots on the switch I'm looking at appears to just have black and red spots, no yellow spot. Also, the key stops exactly at each spot, not between them. The black spots correspond to Daytime Parking (position 0) and Nighttime Parking (position IV) in the diagram I posted.

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Unread 01-16-2013, 11:13 AM
Dave swMN Dave swMN is offline
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Thanks for the pics. I still working on how to get mine loaded, got my album now trying to figure out how to move pics. into it.

My switch looks the same as both the key side and back side as the pics. from Spokes and By The Lake. the number on the key side is different if that makes a difference.

When I took the switch off the bike this morning I checked voltage on the connector on the wire harnes and found 2.6v on both the spade lugs that go to the DY and SE positions on the back of the switch. Could this be an indication that the rectifier is bad? If so can I use the 4 wire rectifier I described in a previous post and do you kknow how to hook it up?

Thanks for all the help I work on large farm machinery all the time be this small stuff gives me fits!!
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Unread 01-17-2013, 03:28 AM
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I'll try not to ignite the "rectifier wars" that sometimes occur on other motorcycle forums. Discussing rectifiers is somewhat like debating what engine oil to use, where opinions will vary. Rectifiers probably get blamed for more issues than they deserve, but it's true that selenium rectifiers degrade over time, regardless of use. That means that even new/old stock (NOS) rectifiers that are decades old can still be bad. Since a rectifier is really a collection of diodes, or one-way electrical 'valves', a degraded rectifier can act like a leaky heart valve in your charging system. Many people leave the old rectifiers in place with no issue, and perhaps the proliferation of trickle chargers like the Battery Tender help to mask the inefficiency of a faulty rectifier. Personally, I've always replaced selenium rectifiers with silicon rectifiers, which are more efficient and will last forever. Since the new silicon rectifiers are $20 or less, it's just cheap insurance.

Regarding your question - the number on the front of the key switch simply refers to the key code, with a matching number stamped on the key.

So, you've pulled the harness from the switch. That eliminates the switch from the voltage readings. That's good - I like the process of elimination.

From the switch's harness connection, the DY wire (which should be white) goes to the alternator, through the stator windings, and exits the alternator via the brown wire, which routes up to the rectifier.

Do you have an ohmmeter or multimeter that measures resistance? I'm thinking it would be nice to test the rectifier, to at least know what condition it's in.



We don't yet know whether your rectifier is an issue, but if you're curious, a new silicon rectifier looks like this:



You can get them from Radio Shack for about $15, but I've ordered mine from Oregon Motorcycle Parts, where the owner sells them with wiring connections and instructions for about $22.
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  #14  
Unread 01-17-2013, 06:23 AM
Dave swMN Dave swMN is offline
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This is the third time posting a reply must have been too long winded as I had to relog-in and by doing so lost my reply. Will write shorter ones.

By The Lake thanks for the explainations and rec. sure makes things move along much better.

Did find your old post about rectifiers last night so ordered one from Oregon Cycle. Will change it out and test the old to try and determine if the old one was causing the 2.6v readings.
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Unread 01-17-2013, 06:32 AM
Dave swMN Dave swMN is offline
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With the switch removed yesterday and a jumper wire up to each connection on the harness everything worked (except don't know about the ign/chrg system) when I put the switch back in I think everything worked except mybe the tail light in one of the key positions. Don't know what I might have changed to have things work!??!

Think I have the key positions figured out. There just seems to be an extra position in the middle of the sequence (don't have my note with to say for sure where that postion is) that doesn't turn anything on if I remember correctly. More later.
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