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The Honda CA95 / Benly 150 Restoration The little brother to the CA160 in our family of Hondas

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  #1  
Unread 12-02-2011, 06:40 PM
kartgreen kartgreen is offline
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Thumbs up Morris Motorcycle OIl

As most of you know early Hondas as well as most other motorcycles made before the 70's have a very rudimentary oil filtration system and the motors were made to operate with oils that haven't been available for many years . Earlier this year I began looking for an oil thats compatible with older motorcycles and found Morris Classic motorcycle oil . This is an English company but they have a stateside distributor -Classic Oil Supply in Richmond Virginia .
After speaking with Classic Oil Supply I ordered a case of oil ,They mixed the case ( half 30 wt. / half 40wt. ) . All 3 of my CA95's had clutch slippage issues as well as a light blue haze from the exhaust . I was using 30wt. car oil in them . After switching the bikes to the classic oil my clutch slippage problems have gone away , and as an added bonus I don't notice the blue haze from the exhaust anymore .
Keep in mind these bikes aren't ridden very much so any increase in performance is welcome .
In August I purchased a 1975 CB 500 T that had been resting for 4/5 years and of course the clutch plates were locked together . I got the bike running but rolling it down the drive and popping the clutch lever I couldn't get the clutch plates unstuck . I'd though I may have to take the clutch apart but I went ahead and changed oil ( Morris Classic )ran it on the centerstand for a few minutes and let the bike sit overnight . I went out the next morning and fired up the bike pulled the clutch and into gear it went . Took the bike for a ride and in about 5 miles no clutch slippage and the actuation was and remains smooth .
So , all in all I'm pleased with the oil from Morris ,it's a low detergent oil with a zink additive which you won't find in modern oils any more . If you want to learn more about Morris oils their website is being revamped ( morrislubricaants .co.uk ) but Classic Oil Supplys website will give you info .
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Unread 12-03-2011, 06:36 PM
65ca95 65ca95 is offline
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Thanks Kart will check it out.
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Unread 12-03-2011, 07:30 PM
Grunt Grunt is offline
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Why not Valvoline VR1?
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  #4  
Unread 12-03-2011, 08:33 PM
Spokes Spokes is offline
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Member Kartgreen's oil find is unmatched. He gave me a couple of quarts to try out and I stand by his findings.

As far as modern multi-weight oils are concerned. They are not suitable for the old Honda motorcycle wet clutch engines. Nor are they suitable for gas powered engines manufactured prior to about 1975. The old engines required an anti-scuff additive (a zinc compound) to prevent wear to the valve train. Newer engines have hydraulic valve trains and do not require the zinc additive. In addition, the zinc additive clogges up catalytlic converters. Thus modern motor oils have little or no zinc in their formula's.

The multi-weight high detergent oils are also bad news for the old air cooled Honda engines, as they run hot. The high temp that the old Honda engines operate at will breakdown the wax chemistry in modern oils that make them "multi-weight". In addition, modern oils have anti-friction additives that will make the old style wet clutch slip. My theory as to why we find a lot of the old Honda's with stuck clutches, is that the wax chemistry in modern oils, used by mistake, have polimerized due to heat and become tacky. To add insult to injury, the high detergent keeps dirt suspended and defeats the purpose of the spinner type oil "filter" found on the old Honda engines.

So besides member Kartgreen find, which is the best. I suggest using straight 30wt weight non detergent motor oil with an additive called "Rislone Engine Oil Treatment with Zinc additive (part# 4401) Use this additive by its suggested additive to oil ratio on the bottle.

Or, straight 30 wt Diesel Motor Oil (Shell Rotella) The diesel motor oils still have the zinc additive.

Last edited by Spokes; 12-03-2011 at 08:39 PM. Reason: sp
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  #5  
Unread 12-04-2011, 07:25 AM
Jetblackchemist Jetblackchemist is offline
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When I was looking for oil I read that Rotella had been dropping their zinc/phos levels every year for the past few years but it's still up there at around 1200ppm if it's branded Rotella T. Otherwise racing and the high mileage oils have more ppm zinc/phos levels. If you want very high levels you may have to special order the racing types which can have upwards of 2300ppm zinc/phos or high mileage avg around 1200ppm.

The standard ppm off the shelf is going to be anywhere between 750ppm to 1000 and getting less and less every year due to clean air requirements etc. Here's a sample ppm/additive etc. run down of Mobil1. http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...duct_Guide.pdf it's the only one I could really find a detailed info sheet on in one place.

The worst thing for wet clutches are friction modifier additives that many oils have, so far the Rotella has stayed away from those, if not ordering the kind Kart suggests, then going with the Rotella as the back up as Spokes suggests is the best option.(Kicking over the motor in gear, with the clutch lever pulled in, with the key off also helps break free stuck clutch plates, it also breaks free any after a few weeks of sitting.) P.S. make sure you're pulling the clutch and not the front brake...yes I've done that

Last edited by Jetblackchemist; 12-04-2011 at 07:27 AM.
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Unread 12-04-2011, 07:26 AM
Jetblackchemist Jetblackchemist is offline
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Here's an exhaustive run down on all the additives that can be found in oil and what they do; as well as other things that can be found in oil, by running oil sample tests from your engine.

Aluminum
Is most commonly from wear (scuffing) on piston skirts as they repeatedly travel along the length of a cylinder. Other sources often include aluminum engine blocks, certain types of bearings, and heat exchangers (oil coolers).

Chromium
The source of chromium wear metals are almost always from piston rings, which are used to form a tight seal between the moving piston and stationary cylinder wall. These rings have to reliably create a tight seal between the piston and the cylinder wall while travelling at up to 4,000+ feet per second and dealing with peak pressures of over 2,000 psi (136 Bar) depending on the engine design and usage.

Iron
This is the only wear metal that accurately and linearly increases with the length of time the oil has been in service. It has many sources inside of an engine, most commonly coming from cylinder liners, camshaft lobes, crankshaft journals, and oil pumps.

Copper
Is widely used due to its high ductility and thermal conductivity. It is mainly utilized in bushings and bearings such as: crankshaft journal bearings, connecting rod bearings, camshaft bushings, piston wrist pin bushings, thrust washers, and even heat exchangers (oil coolers).

Lead
Is a soft, sacrificial wear metal used on surfaces such as bearings. Lead based Babbitt alloys. Commonly found in main crankshaft journal bearings and contaminated fuels. Other sources include leaded fuels and gasoline octane improvers.

Tin
Commonly alloyed with Copper and Lead, it is typically found in crankshaft journal, connecting rod, and camshaft bearings, along with heat exchanger cores and thrust washers.

Molybdenum
This is most commonly used as an anti-wear/anti-scuff additive and has an effect commonly called “Moly plating” where over time, a thin and microscopic layer of Molybdenum tends to form between contact surfaces, thereby creating a lower coefficient of friction between the two parts. Concentration levels of Molybdenum vary greatly depending on the formulation of each specific oil brand, and viscosity.

Nickel
Though not very widely used anymore, Nickel can be found in certain alloys of steel for internal engine parts, and also is used as a coating on bearings.

Manganese
Is sometimes used in certain steel alloys and has virtually no other uses in these applications.

Silver
Due to its exceptional thermal conductivity, it is occasionally implemented as a coating on bearings to help provide minimal friction. However, it is susceptible to corrosion from Zinc-based additives and is not commonly used in the U.S.


Titanium
Is a newer, more environmentally friendly anti-wear additive being implemented due to more stringent emissions regulations, and is phasing out the older, more harmful phosphorous compounds such as ZDDP (Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate). ZDDP reduces the effectiveness of the catalysts in catalytic converters by creating a plating effect during combustion, and covering the catalyst while Titanium does not. Titanium chemically binds to wear surfaces creating a hard, Titanium based oxide layer which reduces friction, thereby reducing wear. Concentration levels vary greatly depending on oil brand.

Potassium
Most commonly found if there is a coolant mixing with, and contaminating the engine oil.

Boron
Used as a corrosion inhibiter, anti-wear and anti-oxidant additive. Concentration levels vary greatly depending on oil brand.

Silicon
A very common contaminant most often found in a very abrasive solid form, which causes increased metal wear numbers (especially Iron) in oil samples. . Its most common source is insufficient air filtration. However, silicone can be found in gasket compound sealants.

Sodium
This is most commonly used as a corrosion inhibiter additive, and occasionally can indicate a coolant leak into the oil. Concentration levels vary greatly depending on oil brand.

Calcium
Used as a detergent and dispersant additive to maintain suspension of particulate matter, along with maintaining a reserve alkalinity. Concentration levels vary greatly depending on oil brand.

Magnesium
Also used as a detergent and dispersant additive to maintain suspension of particulate matter, and occasionally used in certain alloys of steel. Concentration levels vary greatly depending on oil brand.

Phosphorous
Used as an anti-wear, anti-oxidant, extreme pressure, and corrosion inhibitor additive. Concentration levels vary greatly depending on oil brand.

Zinc
Another anti-wear, anti-oxidant, and corrosion inhibitor additive also commonly found in bearing alloys. Concentration levels vary greatly depending on oil brand.

Barium
A detergent which also acts as another corrosion and rust inhibitor used in some synthetic oils. Concentration levels vary greatly depending on oil brand.

SUS viscosity at 210°F
The Saybolt Universal Second (SUS) viscosity is the measurement of time that 60 cm3 of oil takes to flow through a calibrated tube at a controlled temperature (210°F in this case). Each weight of oil such as a 30 weight (5w30/10w30/etc) has an acceptable range to fall into to meet that grade. In the case of a used motor oil sample, it should fall between 56 and 63 SUS. It fell at 56.9, which is slightly less viscous than a virgin sample of the identical oil, which began at 58.3 SUS. That means the sample had a 2.4% viscosity loss over its service life due mainly to shearing and slight fuel dilution. Oils such as Castrol Edge 5w30 are on the thinner end of the 30 weight spectrum, and are on the borderline of being a “thick” 20 weight oil straight from the bottle.

cSt viscosity at 100°C
Viscosity at 100°C given in Centistokes. Less commonly used so there isn’t much to discuss here. Sorry folks.

Flash point in °F
This is the temperature at which the oil sample will start to combust in °F. Lower flashpoints tend to indicate a presence of fuel.

Fuel%
This is the amount of raw fuel content in your oil sample given as a percentage of total volume. Fuel dilution is common from cold starts with lots of idling (engine ECUs typically run rich on a cold idle) and short trips. This causes raw fuel to work past the piston rings and into your crankcase, which dilutes your oil and acts as a solvent, partially washing away the critical oil film and increasing wear between parts. This is why used motor oil, especially on older carbureted vehicles, sometimes smells strongly of gasoline.

Antifreeze%
Percentage of antifreeze found in the sample given as a percentage of total volume. Antifreeze will show up in an oil sample and indicate a coolant leak into the oil from such things as cracked engine blocks or cylinders heads, and leaking cylinder head gaskets.

Water%
Percentage of water found in sample given as a percentage of total volume. Moisture is common in short trip vehicles that don’t fully get the oil up to operating temperature long enough. It generally takes 10-15 minutes for the oil to get to this temperature, which is enough to start evaporating the moisture in the sample. The same goes for fuel in your sample too. An occasional long highway drive is good for your oil’s health.

Insoluble%
This is the amount of insoluble material in the oil sample given as a percentage of total volume. The most common insolubles are carbon from the combustion chamber, oxidation of the oil, and dirt that gets sucked in through the engine’s intake system. This is mostly what turns your oil darker the longer it has been in service. Higher insoluble percentages often indicate insufficient air and oil filtration.

TBN
The TBN (Total Base Number) is a lubricant’s reserve alkalinity measured in milligrams of potassium hydroxide, or calcium sulfonate per gram of oil. In more simple terms it is the amount of active additives remaining. This number is important because combustion byproducts tend to form acidic compounds and the TBN is the acid-neutralizing capacity of the lubricant. The TBN does not decrease linearly with the time it has been in use. Example: it could start out at a TBN of 10, drop to 5 after only 1,000 miles of use, and then stabilize around 3 for a majority of the remaining service life. A TBN of <1.0 is generally considered to indicate near depletion of additives, and is a safe point to change your oil. Once the additives are depleted then the infamous sludge can begin to form.

TAN
The TAN (Total Acid Number) is the amount of potassium hydroxide measured in milligrams needed to neutralize the acids in one gram of oil. When plotted on a graph with the TBN, the point at which the two lines cross is the optimal point to change your oil and indicates nearing additive depletion.

Last edited by Jetblackchemist; 12-04-2011 at 07:40 AM.
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  #7  
Unread 12-04-2011, 09:18 AM
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ByTheLake ByTheLake is offline
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Here's an interesting how-to from an oil "expert" (Spokes ... is this you in the video?)

YouTube Video - Olive Oil for your Engine

Last edited by ByTheLake; 12-04-2011 at 09:23 AM.
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Unread 12-04-2011, 10:10 AM
KellieLyne KellieLyne is offline
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Hey Spokes, would you recommend this zinc additive oil for 305 engines also? And that video, LMBO, very funny!

Last edited by KellieLyne; 12-04-2011 at 10:17 AM.
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  #9  
Unread 12-04-2011, 10:46 AM
Spokes Spokes is offline
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LOL! BytheLake...Lord have Mercy! No, that's not my oil video. Wow... that video is crap. I spent 18 of my first years in Food R&D, 5 of those years were in Fats & Oils. Do not use vegetable oil in your engines!

And the guy in the video....phew. Below is a pic of Spokes last summer working a local car show.


Kellielyne. Yes, the Rislone additive is a good add for your 305 as well. Basically it is a good additive for those old mechanical rocker pre 1975 engines. But ratio the volume needed in the 305 based on the ratio suggested for the 5 qt sump in an automotive application.

Olive oil in your engine...phooey....
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  #10  
Unread 12-04-2011, 05:20 PM
wnbasac wnbasac is offline
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Here's a thread that's still being hashed on the 305 dream forum.
>
http://www.honda305.com/forums/viewt...ht=oil&start=0
>
I used a 30wt non-detergent oil in my 305
>
I just thought u guys would like some more reading material
>
Have a HondaFull Day

Lou
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  #11  
Unread 12-05-2011, 04:50 AM
kartgreen kartgreen is offline
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Thanks to the folks that have added to this discussion .I'm well aware of many forum threads concerning the "BEST" oil to use in whatever application you seek to use it in .I hope my point of promoting Morris Oils if that's what anyone wants to call it , is that Morris is providing a product specific to our segment of motorcycling . I'm not a chemist ,but I've read many opinions and analysis of lubricating oils which led me to look for a oil that would work best in my early model bikes . If there are other oils that work well we should also list them .
My observations are seat of the pants ,it has made my bikes operate better .
My Harley has 3 different lubricating oils in the engine ,transmission and primary and if you look at any Harley forum you'll find many opinions as well as options , we don't have many options . Sure there are lots of oils on the market but what works well in our bikes are limited .
Again .I hope I'm not starting an oil war thread , just about any vehicle forum you look at has one going , but what is suitable for our bikes .
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Unread 12-05-2011, 08:06 AM
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It's like everyone here had the oil debate on the tip of their tongues. I've read some pretty ridiculous threads around the web so this discussion is pretty tame which is a relief. After hearing the first hand experience from our fine members here I have can say that Morris Motorcycle oil is the only oil I would go out of my way to order and put in my old bikes. The sticking clutch problem is a HUGE annoyance to us all and I'm glad there is a company making a product that can make such a difference. From what I have been told by oil professionals I know: the smaller the company the more control they have over the ingredients of their oil.
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Unread 12-05-2011, 06:19 PM
Grunt Grunt is offline
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I was not able to find a website for Classic Auto Supply - just a ph#. That's the reason why I asked if there was something easier to acquire at a local store. I'll see if NAPA or Tractor Supply has the Shell Rotella T.
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Unread 12-05-2011, 06:23 PM
weestrom05 weestrom05 is offline
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Default rotella t

In the Tampa area al least, Rotella t 30 wt is available at Wally World, Advance Autp and Auto Zone.
Curt
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Unread 12-05-2011, 06:36 PM
Grunt Grunt is offline
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Thanks for the tip Weestrom05!
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